Structure Fires

Quote from EFD850

1 Engine company with 3 personnel isn't going to break the 2 in 2 out rule. You have other companies coming. So, again read the actual standards. If you don't have the standards. I can email them to you. My volunteer department has failed an ISO inspection before for not having 2 engines and 4 personnel on scene in the past. The city adjacent to my volunteer department operates 3 personnel on all their trucks because 2 engines still provide 6 personnel on scene. Therefore, the "two in two out" is still accomplished. Read the standards, not just an article from NOFD's IAFF.

Um it does violate the regulations because if it's a structure fire you are responding to then the two in two out applies read the standards then come back here and start talking I know the regulations i don't need a volunteer telling a career what is and what isn't regulation. Trucks are meant to have 3 personnel we are talking about engine companies not truck companies. Let me tell you something go ahead and read OSHA and NFPA then come back here and start talking volunteer boy lol not meant to bash on volunteers. the two in two out applies to attack crews and guess who does the attacking engines so no that part about saying 6 personnel on scene does not apply it applies to engines because they are the ones attacking the fire in a structure so therefore it applies onl to them so therefore you just admitted another department is breaking industry standards.

Quote from FirefighterChicago

Um it does violate the regulations because if it's a structure fire you are responding to then the two in two out applies read the standards then come back here and start talking I know the regulations i don't need a volunteer telling a career what is and what isn't regulation.

First off. NFPA is a standard not LAW. Educate yourself rook. OSHA is LAW, NFPA is a standard. It doesn't matter if you have 2 on an engine company and 2 on scene making it a total of 4. Or 1 on the truck and 3 on scene making it a total of 4. The "Standard" wants 14 FFs on scene of a structure fire.

Actually NFPA is requirements so therefore you must obey them second of all I'm a captain so nice try volunteer.

In most cases, compliance with NFPA standards is voluntary. However, in some cases federal or state Occupational Safety and Health (OSHA) agencies have incorporated wording from NFPA standards into regulations. In these cases, complying with the standards is mandatory.

why are we goingnoff this nfpa when this game has other countries playing it to

We aren't going off NFPA standards for the game. The topic just got a little off topic lol.

This game is made for the player to customize how many people they want on a truck etc. The only requirement this game has. Is that you send the minimum units to handle certain calls. You can send more if you want which is what I do. For all structure fire related calls on here. I send 2 Cars, 3 Engines, and 2 Ladders. All staffed with 4 except obviously the Chiefs. Only because that is what my department responds with and I play as my FD.

Quote from FirefighterChicago

I would just like to clarify that NFPA minimum is 2 engines and 1 truck and a battalion for residential fires if any department gets caught not complying with NFPA bare minimum response requirements then they would be fined for violation of NFPA regulations just like the city of New Orleans did for not having 4 personal for an engine company, instead they had engine companies made of 3 personal on it and they got caught by NFPA for it and fined for not meeting industry standard for not sending the bare minimum required units to structure fires and for violating both NFPA 1500 and NFPA 1700 for allowing 3 personnal to make up an engine company when NFPA 1500 and NFPA 1700 requires a minimum of 4 personnal to make up an engine company. You can read the response requirements on pages 19-20 on this report issued by IAFF https://www.google.com/url?sa=…g2=miVS3WQQ_WFU5kdpRHJjTA I don't know if this post is revelant or not but the information is there.

This reply just shows your lack of knowledge of NFPA. NFPA is a standard, not a law. NFPA is a private organization that puts out recommendations for fire services to follow however is not required by law in any way shape or form. NFPA has no ability to fine a department for not following their recommendations. The only standard that would apply here is the OSHA standards. They are law and must be followed. It would not be financially feasible for a department to be 100% NFPA compliant, thus departments end up choosing what standards they would like to follow. The other advantage NFPA gives is in the event of a issue arrising where someone wishes to sue the fire department, there is an industry standard to hold them too, however again this "standard" is not a law or requirement by any means.

Also look nation wide at how many fully professional departments are operating with 3 man engine companies. Is it optimal? No. The down fall to a 3 man engine company is that you cannot make entry into a structure until a unit arrives with equally trained staff. Here how we combat that is we have air packs on our ambulance and the responding medics act as interior firefighters as well.

Quote from EFD850

That article doesn't reflect the NFPA standard at all besides 14 firefighters being required on the fireground. That article is for NOFD and from their IAFF. That article only pertains to the NOFD. There are multiple departments that operate with 3 personnel on Engine Companies. NFPA 1500 (Standard on Fire Department Occupational Safety and Health Program) and 1700 (Guide for Structural Fire Fighting) have nothing to do with fireground minimums. NFPA 1710 (Fireground Staffing Levels for Career Fire Departments) and the forgotten NFPA 1720 (Standard for the Organization and Deployment of Fire Suppression Operations, Emergency Medical Operations, and Special Operations to the Public by Volunteer Fire Departments). 2 Engines and 14 personnel are the minimum for career and 15 if an aerial is being used. 2 Engines with a total of 4 personnel for volunteer/combination departments.

This is correct, NFPA 1710 and 1720 have the heaviest wording to staffing on a fire ground. Also it is very difficult for departments, even fully staffed departments to meet the standard of 1710.

Quote from FirefighterChicago

No it doesn't the article directly cites from NFPA so no it's NFPA bare minimum. The article directly states that it is a violation of NFPA 1500 for having an engine company staffed with 3 personnel the industry standard is 4 personnel on a company because it's called the two in and two out rule which is required by OSHA and NFPA (OSHA policy 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(4)(i) and NFPA 1500) so if you're not following both OSHA and NFPA on the two-in-two-out then your department is in serious trouble of getting fined a whole sum of money especially for not following OSHA, OSHA does not take too kindly on workplace violations. I know this because I read the article myself NFPA states it and so it is to be followed any department now following NFPA industry standards is going to get fined for violations. If you would look at the citations that they provide you would know NFPA's guidelines for bare minimums for structure fires.

OSHA is a regulation. OSHA is law. NFPA is not.

In fact if you really break down NFPA and its standards, its is the most biased organization in existence. Look who sits on the NFPA committees, a majority are involved in gear manufacture. This has lead to why we have to replace gear that is older than 10 years old regardless of whether it is worn out or brand new in packaging. NFPA is also a money pot.

Quote from FirefighterChicago

Um it does violate the regulations because if it's a structure fire you are responding to then the two in two out applies read the standards then come back here and start talking I know the regulations i don't need a volunteer telling a career what is and what isn't regulation. Trucks are meant to have 3 personnel we are talking about engine companies not truck companies. Let me tell you something go ahead and read OSHA and NFPA then come back here and start talking volunteer boy lol not meant to bash on volunteers. the two in two out applies to attack crews and guess who does the attacking engines so no that part about saying 6 personnel on scene does not apply it applies to engines because they are the ones attacking the fire in a structure so therefore it applies onl to them so therefore you just admitted another department is breaking industry standards.

Alright, just because he is a volunteer and you are career means exactly dick. I know some completely retarded career firefighters, I know some extremely well versed volunteer firefighters. Get off your high horse. As well as if you were REALLY a career firefighter, I doubt if you would bring it to this petty level (statement comes from a career firefighter). So since you want to go to this level, you have already showed your ignorance of NFPA and its actual standing in the fire service.

Two in two out applies to more than your attack crews it applies to ANY staff in a IDLH atmosphere.
More crews perform attack than just an engine company, I surely assumed a career firefighter would have heard of pulling second lines off an engine with other incoming units like truck and rescue companies.

FirefighterChicago wrote:

Actually NFPA is requirements so therefore you must obey them second of all I'm a captain so nice try volunteer.
[/quote]NFPA is a standard, a recommendation, not a law. Also petty, no one here cares that you are a captain, and I am beginning to question it, you are not the only career person on this fourm, and you are not the only person with rank. Not to mention your rank means absolutely nothing to anyone here. Stop playing the look at me i game a firefighter game and I suggest you step it down a notch.

EFD850 wrote:

In most cases, compliance with NFPA standards is voluntary. However, in some cases federal or state Occupational Safety and Health (OSHA) agencies have incorporated wording from NFPA standards into regulations. In these cases, complying with the standards is mandatory.
[/quote]This is correct, there are instances where OSHA and NFPA use the same wording, thus the wording in the NFPA standard is law, but not because it came from NFPA, because it came from OSHA.

While I think that it's incredibly funny to bash someone who is so certain in their ignorance, this thread is way off topic. Let's put it back on topic or I'll be closing it.

Edit: Actually, I'm thinking that a discussion on the minimum staffing for a structure fire is perfectly relevant to this thread. Discussing the amount of compliance to NFPA standards is thus also related. However, bashing other users for their rank, career/volunteer status, or other things, will not continue to be tolerated. Tearing apart arguments one by one is still perfectly fine.

Quote from Gavin876

While I think that it's incredibly funny to bash someone who is so certain in their ignorance, this thread is way off topic. Let's put it back on topic or I'll be closing it.

Edit: Actually, I'm thinking that a discussion on the minimum staffing for a structure fire is perfectly relevant to this thread. Discussing the amount of compliance to NFPA standards is thus also related. However, bashing other users for their rank, career/volunteer status, or other things, will not continue to be tolerated. Tearing apart arguments one by one is still perfectly fine.

Um Gavin actually it's not ignorance it's how I claim NFPA to be I claim NFPA as regulations and requirements it's how I claim it as and I have that right to claim it as regulation whether anyone likes it or not, my department follows almost all of NFPA's regulations so therefore I call it regulations and requirements.

Quote from chevyrulzs2010

In fact if you really break down NFPA and its standards, its is the most biased organization in existence. Look who sits on the NFPA committees, a majority are involved in gear manufacture. This has lead to why we have to replace gear that is older than 10 years old regardless of whether it is worn out or brand new in packaging. NFPA is also a money pot.

Actually no it's not it's more than what you think it is as a matter of a fact it has saved all departments from making the mistake of letting their crews have beards you know why because having hair below the lip line can trap gasses into your SCBA masks. Theres also some more examples of why NFPA is more than what you think it is as a matter of a fact NFPA 72 has saved countless lives making it not fire code compliance to go ahead and put pull stations higher than where anyone can reach them just like the Old Lady of the Angels school did and anyone in the service would know what happened to the school. You want to know why NFPA makes you change your gear every 10 years, because it's already outdated the next set is in compliance with a higher heat sustanability than the gear that is 10 years old, your helmet is the same thing it's already outdated, the next one is in compliance with a tougher durability of debris falling on you. Actually that is incorrect most of them are retired fire chiefs and commissioners only a few of them maybe one or two are involved with gear manufacture. They are involved with it so they know the gear is in compliance and so they can make some adjustments if needed to current gear, so no NFPA isn't a money pot NFPA doesn't get the credit the organization deserves for making changes to help save your life if it wasn't for NFPA you wouldn't have an SCBA back in the day firefighters ran through a building (yes ran, actually ran though it because they wanted to save people as fast as possible and thought the faster you saved them the more of a chance the people would survive but that was before oxygen was starting to be used in the field and actually didn't care about trying to put it out until people were saved from it, they had one goal and one goal only and that was to save as many as they could then they would put it out or be in the process of putting it out from the bucket brigade's help) with nothing on exect maybe your current clothes and a helmet but guess what the helmet wasn't designed to protect you back then yeah that's actually correct back then the fire helmet wasn't designed to protect you as a matter of a fact it was designed for decoration so the department can show off it's "fancy" helmet with cool designs to the public as a matter of a fact the helmet was a stove pipe design in broader terms it looks almost exactly like a top hat but a bit larger on all sidesand served no protection at all, today you have bunker gear and SCBA and a stronger helmet (though I can't technically claim this as they have been made stronger even before NFPA got involved with it) to go into a structure and put it out and you have a chance of making it out alive thanks to the fine people at NFPA. NFPA's there to protect you that's why it was created, it's almost like OSHA but more organized, more strict, and only for one disaster type and that is fire. You should really think about all NFPA has done for you to make sure you are as safe as can be instead of completly bashing the whole organization.

Quote from WNYfirefighter

A suburb of Rochester NY operates 3 on Pumpers (only 3 career staffed), and 2 on their Quint. Therefore you get 8 from one station and 3 from the other career station, plus if the volunteer stations go you have a possibility of a lot of people coming. And the response I gave were general response regulations encompassing several city departments that have the assets. I gave city response regulations because the game currently can't be done accurately in a rural setting due to not being able to add hydrants.
No bashing volunteers on my post. We are trained to the same standards as careers and do the same stuff. We risk our lives for others and their property for free. That deserves respect not some city boy calling us names. Professional is an attitude not a pay check.

It wasn't meant to bash on anyone, as a matter of a fact my department works with the two volunteer departments in my city ones out in the courty and ones located on the east side of the city in the 3rd ward almost all calls we handle we are either helping the volunteer department with M/A or they are either helping us with M/A.

It would be nice to see more variety in the types of buildings that we can be called to, I also think that people who don't have police should be able to get commercial fires, I have over 50 fire stations but I can't get commercial fires because I don't have police stations

Quote from FirefighterChicago

Actually no it's not it's more than what you think it is as a matter of a fact it has saved all departments from making the mistake of letting their crews have beards you know why because having hair below the lip line can trap gasses into your SCBA masks. Theres also some more examples of why NFPA is more than what you think it is as a matter of a fact NFPA 72 has saved countless lives making it not fire code compliance to go ahead and put pull stations higher than where anyone can reach them just like the Old Lady of the Angels school did and anyone in the service would know what happened to the school. You want to know why NFPA makes you change your gear every 10 years, because it's already outdated the next set is in compliance with a higher heat sustanability than the gear that is 10 years old, your helmet is the same thing it's already outdated, the next one is in compliance with a tougher durability of debris falling on you. Actually that is incorrect most of them are retired fire chiefs and commissioners only a few of them maybe one or two are involved with gear manufacture. They are involved with it so they know the gear is in compliance and so they can make some adjustments if needed to current gear, so no NFPA isn't a money pot NFPA doesn't get the credit the organization deserves for making changes to help save your life if it wasn't for NFPA you wouldn't have an SCBA back in the day firefighters ran through a building (yes ran, actually ran though it because they wanted to save people as fast as possible and thought the faster you saved them the more of a chance the people would survive but that was before oxygen was starting to be used in the field and actually didn't care about trying to put it out until people were saved from it, they had one goal and one goal only and that was to save as many as they could then they would put it out or be in the process of putting it out from the bucket brigade's help) with nothing on exect maybe your current clothes and a helmet but guess what the helmet wasn't designed to protect you back then yeah that's actually correct back then the fire helmet wasn't designed to protect you as a matter of a fact it was designed for decoration so the department can show off it's "fancy" helmet with cool designs to the public as a matter of a fact the helmet was a stove pipe design in broader terms it looks almost exactly like a top hat but a bit larger on all sidesand served no protection at all, today you have bunker gear and SCBA and a stronger helmet (though I can't technically claim this as they have been made stronger even before NFPA got involved with it) to go into a structure and put it out and you have a chance of making it out alive thanks to the fine people at NFPA. NFPA's there to protect you that's why it was created, it's almost like OSHA but more organized, more strict, and only for one disaster type and that is fire. You should really think about all NFPA has done for you to make sure you are as safe as can be instead of completly bashing the whole organization.

So, you are telling me that NFPA is the one who regulates the facial hair policy on your SCBA? You should check OSHA again ....

1910.134(g)(1)Facepiece seal protection.1910.134(g)(1)(i)The employer shall not permit respirators with tight-fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have:1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)Facial hair that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function; or1910.134(g)(1)(i)(B)Any condition that interferes with the face-to-facepiece seal or valve function.1910.134(g)(1)(ii)If an employee wears corrective glasses or goggles or other personal protective equipment, the employer shall ensure that such equipment is worn in a manner that does not interfere with the seal of the facepiece to the face of the user.1910.134(g)(1)(iii)For all tight-fitting respirators, the employer shall ensure that employees perform a user seal check each time they put on the respirator using the procedures in Appendix B-1 or procedures recommended by the respirator manufacturer that the employer demonstrates are as effective as those in Appendix B-1 of this section.
OSHA is the one who is providing the regulation, NFPA is still just a standard, this is yet another example of OSHA and NFPA working together to make our job safer. Since NFPA has no ability to enforce its standards, OSHA ... the LAW ... used the common wording to make it so it has to be. Am I saying that NFPA has not done good things? No absolutely not, but you are also false in saying 10 year old gear does not meet the thermal standards of todays NFPA ... We have thrown out gear that has better thermal ratings due to its age than some of this new gear we are buying ... there is pros and cons to both sides of it ... NFPA is a good organization, it has done good things and made positive changes, but to go out and say that NFPA is the end all be all best thing to happen to the fire service is over the top and there is no denial that there is other influences other than safety in NFPA ... as with any organization, you have to make an evaluation of if their mission fits yours. There is no denying that a committee working on NFPA standards relating to gear, that is made up largely of the gear manufactures will not have a monetary motive behind it, either making it cheaper to produce or boosting their sales.

So keeping this on topic, yes there is NFPA standards that give GUIDELINES on responses to structure fires, however not every department chooses to, can, or does meet the NFPA standard. So long as they meet the OSHA it is fine. NFPA has no power to do otherwise. Thus the original suggestion does not serve a tangible improvement to the game and actually offers restriction by changing numerous different size and types of fire response to a single structure fire response.

Finally to put the whole NFPA thing to bed, this is directly off their website http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-r…about-codes-and-standards
A code is a model, a set of rules that knowledgeable people recommend for others to follow. It is not a law, but can be adopted into law.
A standard tends be a more detailed elaboration, the nuts and bolts of meeting a code.
thus, NFPA is not law, it can be adopted into law by a particular group or organization, however it is that organization who deals with the mandates of it and what punishment is dealt for not following it, not NFPA. NFPA pure and simple is not law. Further more every NFPA article you have referenced is a standard not a code. But think what you will, I am not going to debate this further.

Quote from FirefighterChicago

It wasn't meant to bash on anyone, as a matter of a fact my department works with the two volunteer departments in my city ones out in the courty and ones located on the east side of the city in the 3rd ward almost all calls we handle we are either helping the volunteer department with M/A or they are either helping us with M/A.

If your comments were not meant to bash volunteers, you would not have placed your self higher than a volunteer telling them they have no right to tell you, a "career" firefighter about the fire service. I agree with WNYfirefighter, as a person who has served all walks of the fire service, career, volunteer, paid on call, no matter your status in the fire service you are as good as you want to be. Yes there are volunteer departments that do not perform well, and make the entire fire service look bad, but I know of many volunteer departments that can compete with career departments in training and ability. The same can be said for career departments, often times you will find more passion for the job in a volunteer than a career department, you see a lot of the "i am just here to collect a paycheck" attitude in the career world.

Quote from chevyrulzs2010

So, you are telling me that NFPA is the one who regulates the facial hair policy on your SCBA? You should check OSHA again ....
1910.134(g)(1)Facepiece seal protection.1910.134(g)(1)(i)The employer shall not permit respirators with tight-fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have:1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)Facial hair that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function; or1910.134(g)(1)(i)(B)Any condition that interferes with the face-to-facepiece seal or valve function.1910.134(g)(1)(ii)If an employee wears corrective glasses or goggles or other personal protective equipment, the employer shall ensure that such equipment is worn in a manner that does not interfere with the seal of the facepiece to the face of the user.1910.134(g)(1)(iii)For all tight-fitting respirators, the employer shall ensure that employees perform a user seal check each time they put on the respirator using the procedures in Appendix B-1 or procedures recommended by the respirator manufacturer that the employer demonstrates are as effective as those in Appendix B-1 of this section.
OSHA is the one who is providing the regulation, NFPA is still just a standard, this is yet another example of OSHA and NFPA working together to make our job safer. Since NFPA has no ability to enforce its standards, OSHA ... the LAW ... used the common wording to make it so it has to be. Am I saying that NFPA has not done good things? No absolutely not, but you are also false in saying 10 year old gear does not meet the thermal standards of todays NFPA ... We have thrown out gear that has better thermal ratings due to its age than some of this new gear we are buying ... there is pros and cons to both sides of it ... NFPA is a good organization, it has done good things and made positive changes, but to go out and say that NFPA is the end all be all best thing to happen to the fire service is over the top and there is no denial that there is other influences other than safety in NFPA ... as with any organization, you have to make an evaluation of if their mission fits yours. There is no denying that a committee working on NFPA standards relating to gear, that is made up largely of the gear manufactures will not have a monetary motive behind it, either making it cheaper to produce or boosting their sales.

So keeping this on topic, yes there is NFPA standards that give GUIDELINES on responses to structure fires, however not every department chooses to, can, or does meet the NFPA standard. So long as they meet the OSHA it is fine. NFPA has no power to do otherwise. Thus the original suggestion does not serve a tangible improvement to the game and actually offers restriction by changing numerous different size and types of fire response to a single structure fire response.

Finally to put the whole NFPA thing to bed, this is directly off their website http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-r…about-codes-and-standards
A code is a model, a set of rules that knowledgeable people recommend for others to follow. It is not a law, but can be adopted into law.
A standard tends be a more detailed elaboration, the nuts and bolts of meeting a code.
thus, NFPA is not law, it can be adopted into law by a particular group or organization, however it is that organization who deals with the mandates of it and what punishment is dealt for not following it, not NFPA. NFPA pure and simple is not law. Further more every NFPA article you have referenced is a standard not a code. But think what you will, I am not going to debate this further.

If your comments were not meant to bash volunteers, you would not have placed your self higher than a volunteer telling them they have no right to tell you, a "career" firefighter about the fire service. I agree with WNYfirefighter, as a person who has served all walks of the fire service, career, volunteer, paid on call, no matter your status in the fire service you are as good as you want to be. Yes there are volunteer departments that do not perform well, and make the entire fire service look bad, but I know of many volunteer departments that can compete with career departments in training and ability. The same can be said for career departments, often times you will find more passion for the job in a volunteer than a career department, you see a lot of the "i am just here to collect a paycheck" attitude in the career world.

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Dude just get over it already if you are going to whine and complain about NFPA then just shut up about it. As a matter of a fact it is a proven fact that newer gear has a higher thermal rating and as a matter of a fact NFPA is the one that started that standard about facial hair OSHA was just copying the standard. Let me tell you something if your department follows NFPA then you follow it it is your department's regulations if they follow it so end of story whether you like it or not if your departmens SOP's is NFPA then you follow it deal with it. Also stop trying to talk crap the moderator has already said that more crap talking about other users was not to be toleratered so I best you just stop before you get banned. Let me also correct you on something there is no monetary motive behind it because NFPA is nonprofit so they don't make money off of anything they make sell or do. Continuation of insulting me will result in me reporting for harassment I and the mods have already told you to stop insulting other users.

the nfpa should have nothing to do with the game coding the minimum requirements need to be set so you cant send 1 engine to a highrise fire there needs to be a open source aspect to the game that allows people to pick what regulations to follow (kinda like the graphics packs) because here we dont have a ladder truck in all the towns and cities seeing a ladder truck in NSW is kinda rare. the point is different areas have diffrent regulations within the same department here so going of one regulation doesnt work for everyonee else it may work for 20% of people but the one thing go remember not everyone has the same.

Quote from leutmatho

the nfpa should have nothing to do with the game coding the minimum requirements need to be set so you cant send 1 engine to a highrise fire there needs to be a open source aspect to the game that allows people to pick what regulations to follow (kinda like the graphics packs) because here we dont have a ladder truck in all the towns and cities seeing a ladder truck in NSW is kinda rare. the point is different areas have diffrent regulations within the same department here so going of one regulation doesnt work for everyonee else it may work for 20% of people but the one thing go remember not everyone has the same.

same here in the uk my county where I live only has one ALP and one CARP for the whole county

Quote from leutmatho

the nfpa should have nothing to do with the game coding the minimum requirements need to be set so you cant send 1 engine to a highrise fire there needs to be a open source aspect to the game that allows people to pick what regulations to follow (kinda like the graphics packs) because here we dont have a ladder truck in all the towns and cities seeing a ladder truck in NSW is kinda rare. the point is different areas have diffrent regulations within the same department here so going of one regulation doesnt work for everyonee else it may work for 20% of people but the one thing go remember not everyone has the same.

Of course not the game wouldn't ever be coded to preform with the standards the reason why NFPA was mentioned was so people know what NFPA's standards are for fighting fires. NFPA will not nor will ever take over this game.